Bravo Greater Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce!

I thought that everyone was an equal opportunity member whether you are black or white or purple, gay or straight. I do not understand the idea of a Gay Council.
What is the point?. Gays are accepted in every aspect so why the idea of a Gay Council?

I could not agree more with Mr. Bach. I hate to place a moniker on someone, but who cares if they are gay or straight...as long as the person lives in integrity, who cares about their personal life. It is none of my business.

In a perfect world, Gerri and Allan are right. But it's not perfect.

People who are LBGT and feel that they aren't being treated fairly will go somewhere else and tell all their LBGT friends to go somewhere else as well. Why wouldn't a business want to take advantage of this opportunity, this loyalty, and why shouldn't they look to the Chamber to help them?

I stand corrected. I never thought of it in that manner. You may have made a very good point.

I stand and agree with Mr Bach. Integrity, honesty, and ability are my barometer for using a business.

In response to An interested bystander, by the same token, people who do discriminate (wrongly) or are offended may end their loyalties and now take their business elsewhere.

As you say, its not a perfect world.

This is not what a Chamber of Commerce should be promoting. I don't care to know, or otherwise endorse the sexual behavior of people I do business with. Keep it to yourself and in your bedroom. The only purpose of this committee is to promote what many believe to be a deviant life style.

What is interesting is how people living inside the Castle walls believe that their perception is reality. It does make a big difference in my partner's and I choice is choosing a service. Someone who has the foresight to understand that LGBT Dollars are the same colors of your dollars, has our vote. It may not be a Mind Field for you but LGBT folks still have barriers, invisible to you, that are very clear for them. You would be amazed how often Sexuality is an issue when it shouldn't be.

Case in Point. We do our best to screen contatctors for home improvements. We had windows replaced and the window merchant provided the contractor. After the contator finished the job and left the site, we discovered 25 red foot prints on our carpet from our kitchen , into the living room, up the stairs and into one of the new windows. When we addressed it with the window merchant he was dismissive-he thought it was funny. When the contractor was leaving he made a comment that later connected the dots as to the motive for this willful vandalism. ( anyone have a rational explanation of how 25 red foot prints got there? no painting was done). When we ask what the material was that composed the foot prints it was dismissed. However what was spooky was that we believe that it was premeditated-bigger story- the dots do connect.
So before you tell me what it is like to walk in my shoes, I have a few pairs I can lend you for practice.

Ahhhh smell that? It’s the smell of capitalism! One minute people are turning their backs on those of us because of our sexual behavior and the next minute our money is a green as the next guys. Isn’t it interesting what people will do in the name of capitalism? Let’s strip away the thin layers of B.S. and get right to the heart of what is really going on: The economy is bad, business is fighting for every dollar they can get – this is just the “new” untapped market of the day (well, in America anyway). Allow me to be straight with you – the gay, lesbian, Tans and Bi communities already have a network of tips on where “we” are welcome and have been treated with the same respect as everybody else – and an unwritten list of places “we” aren’t. Just because you may have now realized that my money is the same as “everybody” else’s doesn’t mean that suddenly mean I am going to be shopping with you

Embrace diversity, respect equality. Add this to the Golden Rule and we would have a perfect society. Ours is not to judge, live and let live.

I believe that the Chamber is creating this council in an effort to include more business leaders rather than to single out a particular group.

Mr. Snover you are right on.

Shouldn't we have a special group for polygamists? I think they face a lot of challenges too. How about fat ugly men and women... they have a rough time too. How about one for couples that like to husband/wife swap? Dare I ask about men who like livestock..... We could have little seals the businesses can post in their yellow page ads and on their windows to fully outline each business owners sexual preferences. This is just pandering to the never ending whining of every special interest group.

There are councils for Women, Young Professionals, Small Businesses, not to mention the Hispanic Chamber. Each of these groups allows people who share something in common to meet, network together and to discuss issues that are relevant to their group. Anyone is welcome at the programs as the meetings are not exclusive to the group.

@Mary, on the contrary, I AM is following the logical progression here. On what basis has homosexuality be deemed "legal", vs. Polygamy, Bestiality, etc. You call those behaviors "perverted", but homosexuality was considered to be "perverted". I dare say if folks involved in these behaviors "came out of the closet", they would face many of the same "biases" and "injustices" as LGBT folks have. This is hypocrisy, you want special recognition, and you want to be accepted as "normal", but you have the nerve to call other behaviors perverted. Who determines what is "normal" and what is "perverted"? If you are going to argue that "society" does, then keep in mind where we came from, and then keep in mind where we are likely to go.

As a Christian, I firmly believe once you toss God's word out, you lose all sight of any ability to "measure" what is right and what is wrong. We as humans are sinful by nature, and left to our own devices, we will progress into perversion deeper and deeper. This is not just about homosexuality, it impacts heterosexuals who think adultery is OK, wife swapping, pornography, etc. Pick your place on the continuum.

This is America, you have the right to disagree with the Bible and not believe what it says. Keep it to yourself and I will treat you fairly, I don't demand everyone accept the standards I have. You can not make me agree with you any more then I can make you agree with me. That is really the goal with these groups.

@Lee Snover, it is legal by the simple fact that it is not illegal! I did not say polygamy was perverted, I said it was illegal in PA. However, in my opinion, which I am free to express given our constitution, men having sex with animals is perverted! Just as men having sex with children is perverted! Where we came from is not at issue. Where we are going is. One would hope that an intelligent, free thinking society is moving forward. Again, I must point out the obvious that you, like "I AM KNOWLEDGE" are coming from a point of view that only involves sex. Being gay is not just about sex. How does "keep it to yourself and I will treat you fairly" apply to the Jehovahs Witnesses who come door to door on Saturdays? Do you answer your door? Do you treat them fairly? Are you rude to them?
Are they keeping it to themselves? By the way contray to what you assumed, I am a happily married, for almost 43 years, Catholic woman. Please do not presume to tell me about God and the Bible. I am well educated in my faith.

I want to be the straight person on the gay council. Why? Because I am sure there are gay people on the straight council. Equality right?

@Lee Snover, my beliefs are not contray to my position. We are all created in His image. I will recant one statement. If you want to cavort with animals I will not condem you. I will pity you and pray for you. I stand by my statement that pedofiles are lawbreakers and sinners.

@Mary, it is not either of our right to condemn, that is God's right. Assuming you are a believer, your obligation is to agree with the Lord and stand for what He stands for and stand against what He stands against. Cavorting with animals is a sin, taking advantage of children is a sin, homosexuality is a sin, adultery is a sin, according to God's word. None the less, the Bible also says we are all sinners that fall short of God's standard and it is only by His grace that we are saved. By God's standard we all deserve to be condemned, by His grace we can be saved, and for that I'm thankful. I do not condemn GLTB folks, but I do not condone their lifestyle either. We are created in God's image, but we all have a sinful nature as well. God loves the sinner, which includes GLTB folks, but He abhors all sin, and we should not make excuses for it or celebrate and flaunt it. But we have digressed. The point is whether this is appropriate for a Chamber of Commerce which should be promoting business, not alternative lifestyles.

I don't know of any passage in the bible in which my Lord Jesus Christ condems homosexuals. Maybe I am not as well versed as you, or maybe The St James version, which I am sure you read, differs from the Duey Raimes version the we Catholics read. Let them have their voice, it can do no harm.

Go read Romans Chapter 1 in whatever version of the Bible you like, including Douay-Rheims. Also take a spin through Leviticus in the old Testament. Again, this is an argument for those who claim to be Believers. I understand that in a secular world, this Book and what is says has no authority. But as believers we should not be disavowing God's word. I appreciate your prayers and will pray for you as well. We should be praying for this Nation and all the that is happening in it, from local to National.

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as an excuse to treat anyone unfairly. We are all sinners, and we all need to love one another, even when we mess up. Everyone seems to get worked up over how they are offended, but if a Christian claims offense based on God's word, they are labeled as intolerant, a homophobe, or worse. True freedom comes from understanding God knows us better then we knows ourselves and what He tells us through His word leads to joy and correspondingly, when we ignore His word it leads to sorrow and pain. I do not wish that upon anyone.

Salisbury Resident, go ahead an volunteer I'm sure no one will say no.

For some strange reason I doubt you'll follow through. But I hope I'm wrong.

The dialogue between Mary Anne Looby and Lee Snover is instructive. Lee argues that a secular society can legislate anything it wants to but that making something legal doesn't necessarily make it right. To know what's right, he argues requires listening to "the word of God,"--the Bible. Mary Anne responds that all humans are created in the image of God and should thus be treated with the dignity such sacredness demands. Both writers are seeking a moral basis for their judgements but come to opposite conclusions. Perhaps the reason is that they disagree as to the "word of God."

Lee says the Bible contains the word of God. Mary Anne seems to be saying that she hears the word of God through both the Bible and her conscience. God's Truth can, as we know from experience, be found in both places. The Bible commands that a person who violates the Sabbath by working on a Saturday be killed. It commands that we kill all descendants of Amalek. It commands parents to kill disobedient children and it forbids the eating of shrimp and bacon. We know that the God who created the Universe does not want us to follow these draconian punishments nor does God care that some people eat pork, even though Jesus certainly did not. (See cont. below.)

The Bible does contain God's Truth but it also contains human truth. The Bible calls us to create a just society, to defend the weak and vulnerable, to treat every human being as a creation of God--made in the image of God. But many of the laws of the Bible reflect what the writer assumed to be God's truth--because it seemed true at the time--but, we know now, got it wrong. Few people today believe that God prohibits the weaving of mixed blend of fabric to make strong comfortable clothing, yet the Bible forbids this.

The fact is--the Bible is not the literal "word of God." Scholars to not even agree on what the original language was of many passages in the Christian New Testament. If we don't know the original language, we certainly don't know the "word of God;" we know only a translation. And all translations are interpretations.

Some might argue that God WAS able to transmit God's Truth through a human intermediary and the imperfect human writer was able to write it all down perfectly. But we also know this to be a false assumption. The Ten Commandments (Ex. 20) say that God punishes the children of sinners "unto the third and fourth generation." But in the book of Ezekiel we read that people will be punished only for their own sins and not for the sins of their parents. Both teachings cannot be the word of God yet they are both in the Bible. Either God changed God's mind (Not possible!) or the human writer realized that the author of the Ten Commandments was wrong.

Three further points. First, no passage in the Bible condemns homosexuality unequivocally. In Romans, Paul is condemning "unnatural" sexual relations without defining this. He could be condemning homosexual bathhouses or homosexual promiscuity. In Leviticus we read that a man may not lie with another man as one lies with a woman. Well, men can't. It's physically impossible.

Secondly, we now know something the Biblical writers did not--that homosexuality is not a choice. Rather, gay people are born gay. If they are created in the image of God, it is not that one should judge their sexual orientation as wrong, it is that we should now increase our understanding of God to include a measure of homosexuality!

And thirdly, scholars (not clergy who read their own predispositions into the Biblical text) have a term for those who would use a biblical text to judge others as "sinners." It is called "biblolatry." It is a form of idolatry--to use the words of any book to harm another human being in any way. And judging a gay person to be a "sinner" is not neutral. Believing "we're all sinners" does not justify calling the particular behavior of another couple--when it hurts no one and it sanctifies their relationship--to be sinful.
How, then, can we determine what, actually, is "God's word"? Well, to begin with, we can start with humility and with a distrust of our own limited human capacity to know it. And this I think I could discern in both Mr. Snover and Ms. Looby's dialogue.

More later. I have to visit someone in the hospital.

Mr. Snover,
The earliest parts of the New Testament were written 30 years after Jesus' death. No one knows what he actually said, any more than anyone knows what he looked like. All we have are the reports of others, each with his own theological agenda.

Mr. Bach,
I was not telling you what Leviticus means--only saying that one can understand it in more than one way. Given that God created gay people, and gave them sexual urges, it seems reasonable to me that acting responsibly (i.e. monogamously, etc.) on these urges would not be a sin. As for God having "a measure of homosexuality"--I was not claiming this to be the case; I was only showing that this is one possible response to the Biblical idea that humans are created in God's image. In truth, I do not believe that God has ANY sexuality, or, for that matter, any corporeality. For me the three letters that spell the divinity (g-o-d) are a symbol of two ultimate things: Truth and Ethics. That's what I "worship." When the Bible says we cannot see the face of God and live it is saying we cannot know God's Truth or we would be God. And yet we learn (from the struggle of Jacob with the "divine being" at the Jabbok River) that we are destined, even encouraged, to struggle with the meaning of God--even as we admit, from the start, that we'll never succeed in our quest. To believe in God is to believe that there are ultimate truths to strive to know and to live by.

OK. Now I have to go make that hospital visit. Don't say anything until I get back. (Use the time to learn Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew so you can talk about what the Bible (and not King James' committee) really says. That's a reasonable place to start in a quest to understand "God's word." I am not an expert in the King James or the Douay versions of the Bible so I defer to others who know these books better than I.

the bible is a great book of fiction

Mr Gerard's theOlogy is most definitely twisted, especially when he puts his own interpretation into it.

The term theology means "knowledge of God." Jews have not done much systematic theology because, while they don't think one can know much about this. Think of an ant and what it knows of a human--not much. Well the difference between a human and God is infinitely greater than that between an ant and a human being. The ant knows we exist, but not much more.
Also, theology seeks to describe the reality, or even the essence, of God. But once you describe something, you make it into a thing. And things are idols. We can know a human being objectively (brunette, tall, mother, soprano...) and subjectively (how you experience her when she's near). But we can only know God subjectively and thus each person's knowledge of God (or "experience" of God) is different. In my own experience, the more someone tells me what God is like or who God is, the less authentic they sound. And the more someone has an authentic experience of God, the less they are able to put that experience into words.
Meanwhile, "who God is" is much less important to me than how God wants me to live. And that is the basis upon which I responded to the dialogue prompted by Ms. Peterson's column. The sun is setting. Shabbat shalom. If Jesus were here he'd be lighting his candles and welcoming the 7th day--the day of rest.

Applying a little logic from Bo Burnham here, just for a laugh. This is a prayer he wrote, "Dear Jesus of Nazareth...We know lord, from John 3:16, that you so loved the world that you sent your only son to die for us, your only son. But at the same time, we're all your children. So in your eyes we're a bunch of girls.
So help us as we struggle with the temptations of lesbianism! Amen"
There you have it! Solid proof that everyone is homosexual.
Please don't take this too seriously, I just threw it in there for a laugh. :D
Actually, the fact I had to specify that it shouldn't be taken too seriously scares me a little...

...and to think - if homosexuality simply meant having green hair, none of this would ever be an issue, though I guess you could find Biblical references to green hair being a sin if you looked hard enough. Sad.

Kudos to the Chamber & writer of this article. Should they read these comments they might become more aware of the degree that the irrational, unAmerican and unChristlike myth of heterosexual-supremacy dominates the minds in the Lehigh Valley and the rest of Planet Heterosexual-Supremacy. We shall overcome that evil myth, thanks to rational actions and articles such as these. Thank you.

@Erin: I, too, like to know who to avoid, so thanks for "outing" yourself!

It's really scary to read these post and listen to people twist the words of whatever they happen to believe in to meet their own agenda. Who really cares what two or more consenting adults do behind closed doors? How does that affect what we think of them? How this enters into politics, organizations, etc is beyond my comprehension.

People are choosing to judge other people on whatever book they choose and whatever interpretation of it they happen to agree with.

All of this just reinforces my own personal choice to not be involved in organized religion in any way.

Um...Erin? I'm as straight as they come, and I'm not "peddling" anything. Next theory? :)

@Mary Anne. You are right, there are too MANY serious problems in our world like UNEMPLOYMENT, the lack of US border security, the lack of support and benefits for our MILITARY, not to mention the ridiculous US debt! I think our attention should be directed upon these issues rather than a specialty group who wants to be the flavor of the month and receive special attention. This is a distraction to our more serious issues in the US!

Folks, whatever side of this issue you are on, it's exactly what Pam and Mary Anne are stating that we should NOT do. I do not go out of my way to avoid GLTB folks whether I know they are in that lifestyle or not. This is not something we should use to discriminate against one another in day to day life, any more then you would discriminate against someone who smokes, or has been divorced or had an affair. My point is we ALL mess up, none of us is perfect, but we should not be making special committees to advertise what some would find offensive, or promote characteristics that push us apart. Again I ask, what would the reaction be to a "conservative white Christian council" in the scope of the chamber? The goal should be able to work together peacefully, despite our faults and differences.

Lol. Another do-gooder taking up the cause of others! Good for you Pam!

Wow - you say "do-gooder" like it's a bad thing. I'm proud to be a "do-gooder". It beats being a "do-badder" by a country mile.

@mary Ann...and you are heterophobic! 

Yet another special interest, feel-good group that is not needed.  Why can't they interact with the group the Chamber already has in place.  I call shenanigans if you are spewing propaganda that it's going to benefit all! Once a group knows they can do business with others of the same,  they will not patronize all. If other groups did this they would be called bigots and racists.

Obviously my point of border security, the economy and other issues facing this country went flying over your head because you are too busy pounding your chest for the cause. Forcing your opinion on others diminishes your legitimacy,  as is the case with the LGQWRT  community. 

Like it or not, the majority of Americans do not see this as a pressing issue given the sate of the country and world. If you don't want to be treated like a special interest group then stop acting like one!

Sadly, this is yet another example of our ninth place trophy, no one looses, can't use red pen to mark tests, life is fair and everyone gets what they want society!

I am done with this conversation.  I'll drive my Hemi powered SUV my way and you drive your Prius/Subaru Outback with a covert rainbow sticker your way!  Peace out!

Pretty soon we will need a white straight male council!

This LONG argument really does prove the point. This is a free country, where you have the right to believe what you like, as long as you abide by the law. I'm not condemning LGBT folks from a secular standpoint in our society, nor am I advocating any type of boycotting, or other discrimination. My point is that it is a "special interest", and we should not be pandering to special interest in the scope of general non-religious organizations, politics, education, etc. It is no more right, then if I wanted to force the teaching of Creationism in my local public school. I do not have a right to force my religious beliefs on anyone, and the GLTB community should not be allowed to indoctrinate their beliefs in public organizations either. If they want to go setup their OWN club, group that is their right, but coming into other organizations that have no need for such delineations is wrong and divisive.

And now we hear that even Richard Nixon was gay.

Rosemary, I think the white male population is doing quite well for itself already.
http://www.lehighvalleychamber.org/chamber-information/board-of-governors.aspx

Tommy, actually, economically the LGTB community is doing relatively well. They are also prone to discriminate against "straight" people. So from that stanpoint, the need for such a group is also mute. Here's an interesting article:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0254/is_n4_v54/ai_17599602/?tag=content;col1

I would like to know the Lehigh Valley Transsexual Coalition wasn't invited to this event??? Careerlink the leading jobs provider for the Lehigh Valley and part of the Workforce Investment Act a federally funded program which funds Careerlink. In order to take a basic test called the ABLE test given and forumatled by the Pennsylvania Department of Education. In order to take this test people must provide a photo ID. Most transgender people do not have photo ID that match. Which prevents them from taking this basic entrance test. Repeated request with PA careerlink leaders to address this problem continue to go unaddressed. So it is no wonder why Lehigh Valley Transsexual Coalition was not invited to this event. Nor was it extended an invitation to be a part of this organization. Let trans people advocate for trans people we are the most qualified individuals to understand the complicated issues with appropriate intervention by trans people.

Have you ever wondered why they are prone to discriminate against straight people though? It's not even discrimination, it's backlash against hate. And I've never actually witnessed any of this discrimination you speak of, at least it's never happened to me. You know what has happened to me? I've been called a f****t at school. You know what I did to deserve it? I tried hard in gym class and have a voice that's only slightly higher than average. So you have to ask yourself which side of the argument is discriminating and which side is just frustrated about being discriminated against. Anyway, this is too personal a subject for me to debate over the internet in an objective mindset. I can't really reply anymore past this because it compromises my ability to reason out a logical argument. Sorry, but I'm not going to respond.

Tommy, mr. Snover means the point is "moot." A moot point is one that neither side can prove. It leaves a disagreement in a sort of tie. Mr. Snover knows the word of God, though he doesn't know any language that word was spoken in (nor is he so good with English!). And he worships a God who creates people and then considers them "sinners" for behaving consistent with how they were created. He also thinks that god equates bad or even evil behavior with gay behavior as if that were in the same category. Funny... He says he knows the word of god but I've neverr seen him advocate on this site for, say, charity-giving, or for honesty in paying taxes, or for a health care system that is fair and affordable, or for quality education for all. But he knows we're all sinners. May I suggest to you that if you work hard all the time to do your best--you are NOT a sinner. God did not create you to be an angel... Or even a saint. God created you to be a human. Just live your life as best as you can and know that that is all God expects of you.

With no disrespect for any human or civil right initiative. Transpeople make annually under 10,000 a year income. This is well below poverty income, Jobs and Careers are the best most important ways to becoming self-sustaining measures that other people enjoy without barriers. Transpeople are still denied basic public welfare services because of who they are. That is denying them human dignity and this should be understood as reprehensible treatment toward another human being. Transgender people need basic services and are turned away from them when others have the same opportunity to get basic human services. Being able to work or have a career would help propel them on a path to self-sustainability. As well as having productive people who have many skills and abilities to offer employers.

Rosemary, just to clear something up. And I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but I guess I must have came across wrong. I'm actually straight. I've been subject to discrimination based on something I am not. My guess is that because too few openly gay people go to my school, or the bullies are just homophobic and afraid of going near them or something, they decide to prey on people that they suspect of being gay. Anyway, last post for real this time. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Dircetive from the Department of Agriculture of civil rights. March 3, 1999, 4330-003 http://www.ocio.usda.gov/directives/doc/DR4330-003.pdf states gender but not transgender specifically but does state sexual orientation. Public Welfare benefits for recieving job services are co-ordinated with Careerlinks... There is your proof. Obviously some people are lucky they never had to file for Public Welfare benefits you should count your blessing you are lucky...

If you think that changing ID is that easy it is not. But I suggest to find this out go to DMV website and follow the instructions. There you will need to provide information to verify your new identity you will first need to get voters registration, then another form of ID this would be on the second page in the fine print. Then IF you get through the beauacracy and red-tape you just may get an ID change. There is no gauranntee a judge must give you a name change. But when you have no money these obstacles are insurmountable....which means you cannot afford to pay the fees and Public Welfare does not give you the money to get them... When you live with an income of under 10,000. a fee of 30.00 is unafforable. That is a transgender persons life reality.

As for the ABLE test. I think anyone could attempt the test without ID or otherwise. This is just another obstacle that is unnecessary to find out basic read and writing abilities. The state does not want to take on added expense of being able to take the same test by computer. They are concerned someone else may take this test for you.

Businesses not only sell goods and services they also hire people. Do you want a person who is qualfied to be hired. Here is what the law basically says about hiring a simple little word regardless of......not because of.
You and any other person were hired because your employer (a business) hired you. when you get discriminated against it is because of ....
Businesses and Commerce hire people and produce and sell good and products. what else would this initative be doing???
It’s not controversial anymore to say that the business community supports the idea that people should be employed based on their talent, not their sexual orientation. It’s in their best interest to have a top, talented workforce.”

As the post above leaves off employed. What I am stating is that the transgender community is not hired at the same rate in employment. To the degree that most transgender people live way below the poverty level. So although the gay and lesbian community have seen progress the transgender/transsexual community has not. So this initiative needs to go back and address why this disparity exists and bring about the changes necessary.

I do not advocate for the gay and lesbian community. In the same way they are not transgender/transsexual and cannot advocate and should not advocate for us.

Allan--We live in a society where expertise and authority are disccomunted and everyone thinks their opinion is as valid as any other's. What I said was that you can't claim to be an authority on what the Bible says if you can't even read it but have to rely on what someone elseF says it says--whether your clergy person or King James. As a rabbi I do claim to speak with authority about what the Bible really says. I do not deny other's right to their opinion--unless I feel that they are presenting their opinion as fact.
And if God wanted us to be saints God would have made us that way. I raised my three children to do their best and when they fell short I responded with love and encouragement -- not by calling them sinners.
The bible says, rather, that one should kill a "stubborn and rebellious son". Do you or Mr. Snover believe that to be the word of God?

http://careerlinklehighvalley.org/AboutUs/WhoWeAre.aspx
community partners at the bottom of the page Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce.
Enjoy all

Mr. Snover, I have a master's degree in English literature and another in Hebrew literature. Ordination requires five years of graduate study beyond that. I have a doctorate in psychology. My degree in literature taught me how to read texts critically. My degree in psychology helps me understand what influences peoples' response to events. (For example, following a drought it is not unusual for people to attribute the bad weather to God's punishment. But this doesn't mean it is true. The Hebrew writer did not understand the laws of geo-politics and attributed Assyria's conquering of Israel and, later, Babylonia's conquering of Judah, to Israel's "forsaking the covenant" and thus as a punishment from God. I have taken doctoral courses in history and political science. I therefore understand that politicians in all eras speak in this language. Note Pat Robertson today. Note any presidential candidate who says we've betrayed the Constitution when what he really means is that his opponent is a Democrat (or a Republican). Republicans call their opponents "liberals" or now "socialists". Huntsman trashes Romney for months, then drops out and endorses him. I have learned NOT to trust attribution. Israel didn't sin any more in the days of Assyria's rise than New Orleans sinned in the days of Katrina.

(cont.) Biblical writers were afraid of blood so they wrote many laws revealing this--like no sex during your wife's period. Is this the word of God? Does Jesus sacrifice cancel that law? Which laws, in fact, does Jesus sacrifice cancel? And how does one know, since Paul did not delineate them and, clearly, he did not abrogate them all. Are all the "ten commandments" still in effect? Are the laws of Leviticus 19 still in effect? How do you know? I'm not name calling or slamming anyone. I'm simply saying that using the Bible to call a person in a gay relationship a "sinner" because of that relationship is wrong. It's a misuse of the Bible and it's also a misunderstanding of the origins of the Bible. The Bible is not just any other book. You mis-attributed that opinion to me. But it is not the literal word of God. The text itself says it's a covenant and a covenant, by definition, has two sides. The Bible, the OT at least, contains both Giod's truth and Israel's truth. And Israel's truth is sometimes limited, parochial, unscientific, and even ill-informed. It has to be; it's human truth. But it's there anyway because God chose to enter into a covenant with Israel and thus God is bound by Israel's input into this covenant as much as Israel is bound by God's. (just a little more!...)

What non-Jews often overlook is that the Bible is not the end of the "revelation." it is the beginning. God continues to reveal truth to us in history. Thus we do not read the Bible alone, but with the commentaries, the wisdom, of each succeeding age. It takes a lot of work and thought and contextualization and even then, like the unconscious, like a dream, like the psyche, there's always more. One never fully understands it. So I have no opinion to impose. I only object to others who do.

1. Everyone who is confronted by a person with an advanced degree who challenges their beliefs belittles the scholarship of the learned person and that person's education. Welcome to a very large club.
2. "Jesus sacrifice does not cancel any of the law." OK, so you DO kill a stubborn and rebellious child (or, if you don't, at least God wants you to). You DO avoid your wife during her menstrual period (or at least you "know" that God wants you to). You DO avoid wearing clothing made from a fabric blend (Google "shatnez") or at least admit that God wants you to. You DO observe the Sabbath on the seventh day and agree that God's opinion on this matter, being "the word of God," would not change. You DO agree that in the 50th year of the jubilee cycle, all land bought over the past 49 years must be returned to its original owner... You DO believe that farmers may not plant any seeds on their land in the sabbatical year. You DO believe that in the seventh (sabbatical) year all loans not yet repaid are to be forgiven... Hey, "the word of God" is pretty interesting. Let's not go down that slippery slope by discarding anything God commanded. (cont.)

I'd better spell out my point here, because it is actually relevant: If we no longer think it's a sin to wear a shirt with a fabric blend or to have sexual relations with our wife when she's menstruating, or to keep land that we have bought longer than 49 years, then it is reasonable to think that we no longer have to proscribe gay marriage. Some, not all, but some, of the laws of the Bible do not seem to a person of learning, or even to a good-hearted drop out, to make sense or to have come from a God who is good. God gave us a brain to use not to let atrophy. That's why we're better off outside the Garden of Eden. In Eden we didn't have to think, make judgements, struggle with right and wrong. All we had to do was obey "the word of God." Adam and Eve lived pretty much like the other animals. It is only in leaving Eden, and confronting the difficult ethical issues of life, to we become fully human.

PS Everything you wrote after "with all due respect to your schooling" demonstrates that that you have no respect for my schooling. Which was one of my original points. If you don't respect my knowledge and if you're not open to questioning your own assumptions then there's no real dialogue and this conversation is headed to two dead ends. I'm willing to agree that moral relativism has problems. But you're not willing to agree that moral absolutism also has problems. Nor do you seem willing to accept the modern notion of "autonomy"--the Enlightenment value that an individual's conscience has moral authority. Or, rather, YOUR conscience does, but mine doesn't, because yours reflects "the word of God," i.e yours is absolutely right.

Stop the BS, Allan. I, too, thank you for your service to our country. But I only spoke of my degrees to answer a specific question of Lee's. We were a hundred comments into this before he asked what my qualifications were and I answered.
And I did not say I understood "life" better than he does. I said only that I was better qualified than he is to understand a book. And I only said this because he continued to tell me that, though he is blind (using your metaphor) he sees the meaning of the Bible better than I do. The irony is that you now accuse me of the exact opposite of what I think. My "expertise" regarding the Bible leads me to know that there is no single meaning to its teaching--any more than there is one meaning to a poem or a novel. If great literature is multi-layered and offers many meanings, how much the more so the Bible--the greatest of all books. After thousands of years, its students continue to find new truths in it.

Jonathan,
I don't think Lee meant "By what formal education are you qualified to make such statements?" when he/she wrote "you claim authority by what means?". Your response shows a clear bias toward formal education, which Allan noted in his response. Let's cut to the quick here-- I have read this entire thread and I find Lee's theological (and civic) argument (in the legal sense) to be compelling. Yours is not. Moreover, I have found Lee's tone to be consistently respectful and not worthy of your snarky comments regarding the word "moot" or "mute". Good Day.

This has turned into an ugly debate from what was originally the topic. People have their own agendas as is clearly seen here.

First and foremost @ Allan Bach, a grateful nation thanks you for your service, myself included, @ geri Wetherhold, I agree completly, @ Jonathan Gerrard, As a Catholic woman,I have enjoyed and been enlightened by reading your comments from a Rabbi's perspective, I thank you, @Lee Snover, you have beaten a dead horse, it is now time to get off it, your apparent lack of respect for the opinion of others, especially a clergyman, is appaling. Please take your biblical rants where they belong possible to a bible study group.

@Allan Bach, no one thinks you were soliciting gratitude for your service, there are those of us who will always hold in highest esteem, the men and women who have put their lives on the line and lives on hold to protect our freedoms. @Lee Wetherhold, the same question "by what authoriity do you speak", can be asked. I believe that with a Rabbi as with a Priest, we as lay people are encouraged by their education and religious life and position in our faiths, to trust the authority with which they speak. If one were to assume that you are simply a layperson with some knowledge of the Bibile, and everyone like you were of the same mind, one could also make the leap that the inmates are running the asylum. There is a pecking order dear man, and without one we would have chaos.

@Lee Snover, Finally in your response to Geri, you come back to original topic, which shows how skewed your thinking is. You are comparing apples to oranges. Christianity and Sexual preference have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

@Lee Snover, I too believe in a God who sent His only Son to live and die so that we could know and understand Him. I also know that which you refer to as a revelation to confuse and befudle us has been put before us before us that we may use THE FREE WILL that God also bestowed on us. It is up to us to decide. God expects us to us our free will to make the choices that we, as his children, see fit. Not all of us will choose the same, that does not mean that some of us are sinners, it simply means that we are following the Lord's directive to choose that which we belive is right. Martin Luther made his choice to break away from the Catholic Church. In the modern church no one condems him for his choices. We should all be working and praying for a time when all the people of the world can come together ecumenically. Christianity and Judeism are not that different. Protestent sects are not that different. If you would observe other religions you would discover that we are all more similar than different.

@Lee Snover - God condems those who condems others.

Mary, does He now? What is your Bible reference for that? I am no condemning anyone, it is God's right alone to ultimately "Judge" and "Condemn". God does not want to condemn anyone and neither do I. He CLEARLY condemns sin, and tells us as Christians to hold one another accountable and to flee and resist sin. Not to tear one another down, but to lift one another up and to protect each other from our own sinful natures, and from Satan who waits like a lion ready to devour.

Racism, bigotry is here to stay...Sad.

I am amazed at the comments given since this article was published. I read it immediately but took time to think about my views on this council. Some say 'why should 'they' get special treatment. The Bible has been brought into the argument, people seem to be bashing each other and yet not willing to accept that we all have differing opinions. Why is it OK for one person to voice their opinion and not OK for another to voice their opinion when it opposes the first?
At first my thoughts on the original matter, were those of, "why should the GLBT group get special treatment? Who cares what ones sexual orientation is?" But then I started thinking, if there was a Christian business council or a Single Moms council or Dads with home business council, would I have the same opinion? Discrimination or not, being able to let the community know where your business stands works. If there was a listing of businesses that held the same view as mine, say religion, I'd make sure I patronized those businesses far more often then those that I know oppose my views. If a business supports a group I do not, say Planned Parenthood vs a crisis pregnancy center where adoption or keeping the baby is encouraged (or vice versa) I'd go out of my way not to patronize them. I may or may not agree with the lifestyles of others and that's OK... I'm almost jealous that there isn't a council for aspects of life that I view as important. Let the council stand as is. If you agree, patronize. If not, don't.

Wow Rosemary! I do business with people who deliver the best product, at the best price, showing me the same respect that I show them. It would never in a bizillion years occur to me, my husband or any of my adult children (thank God), or anyone of our many friends to choose a business based on the creed, color, sexual preference or pollitics. I am so blessed to have been give an open mind by my Creator. I do not believe it is human nature to wish to see someone prosper or not, because they agree or disagree with my thinking.

Rosemary, just leave Mary Anne be. She doesn't even believe the tenants of her own faith, and she doesn't realize the dichotomy in her own statements. I.e. She is all for this special GLBT group and said she thinks it's great. Then she just tells you that she would NEVER think of "discriminating" based on any of various criteria. If you don't want to discriminate, then WHY would you have a group who's obvious purpose is to promote one specific group? It's insane. From a business standpoint, I don't really want to KNOW your sexual preferences. Keep them to yourself. If you share them with me and tell me your a believer, I'm going to share with you what I believe God's word says about that behavior. The same as I would share with a Christian friend who I know is having premarital sex or cheating on their spouse. If the person is not a Christian, then I do not expect them to live to God's standards, so it's a moot point. We all discriminate. We naturally gravitate towards people who are most like ourselves and hold common views on things. Discrimination is just another word for "prefer" and we all have preferences.

There is nothing wrong with the GLBT having their OWN group outside of the regular Chamber of Commerce, my issue is that we should not be promoting special groups in a general business group like this where there are people with legitimate apposing views. Anyone can be part of the regular Chamber, and that's OK. But they should promote common goals.

Mr. Snover, I believe some time back I told you I had no desire to continue speaking with you, plesae respect that. If i were to respond to your latest coments it would be with one word.......BULL....! Cease and dissist!

Lee: The holy rabbi of Amshinov was once traveling on a train to visit a distant village for the Sabbath. En route, he thought he saw a person engage in a behavior that he believed violated one of the laws of the Torah. He thought to himself, "The book of Leviticus (19) requires me to reproach a person committing a sin for if I don't, then I'll also incur guilt for (ignoring) his behavior. On the other hand, what if I am wrong? What if I misunderstood the behavior, or the law, and reproached the fellow erroneously? That would surely be a sin." He thought about it for a while and then concluded this: If I sin against the person in front of me on the train he will soon be off to his destination and I will likely never see him again. I will never be able to seek his forgiveness. But if it turns out that my sin is against God (for having neglected to observe God's word in Leviticus) then, knowing that God is always available to me, I can seek God's forgiveness at any time. The rabbi chose not to judge the behavior.

This is not the whole story. It is not even a biblical story. But it is part of a moral legacy that includes another command from Leviticus, "Do not stand idly by the blood of your neighbor." If we see someone sinning in a way that is hurting another human being then, unlike in American law, the Torah ("God's word") requires us to intervene and stop the assault on the victim. God wants God's creatures to worry about people first and God later because the first automatically fulfills the second while the reverse is not guaranteed.

Mary Anne,
You are funny-- like Austin Powers...
"There are two types of people that I can't stand in this world. People who are insensitive of other people's culture, and the Dutch." You could have said that, but Austin Powers said it first. Have a great day, but PLEASE don't become an attorney or a philosopher. You wouldn't last a day.

Sorry-- the quote is from Nigel Powers...Austin's dad.